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question

kVN#

#4iS
Kickrighted
Warteam Member
Donator
#21
I play HC for days now, I saw HC JFF members doing stupid stuff like kicking for literally no reason or saying wrong things about glitches...anyway, if there's spawn killing, one team played better and deserved it. You can always play around it, if I can everyone can get through it. spawn killing is just a product of the game system and kicking for it makes literally no sense since, unlike glitching, you start on equal terms and your teams progress dictates your success (in case of glitching you exploit your knowledge of unknown and overpowered places, usually not intended to be reachable to kill regular people).
It's good that you saw them, this way they'll now know how to do it right. If you actually told them that is..

As for the spawn killing... After the first sentence I stopped reading..
"anyway, if there's spawn killing, one team played better and deserved it."
Lol, no? Thats nothing you can call playing. And it definitely doesn't mean you played better of you're able to spawn kill.
And why compare it to glitching anyways?
That's two different shoes.. Like Anubis said it's exploiting in game possibilities to your favor (if you're doing it right)..

As for the spawn killing like Kon posted, I'll keep kicking for it INCASE people's game gets ruined through it...
I don't give a f.. About myself.. I don't kick because it annoys me... I kick because players like that keep ruining other people's game..

I mean hogging on one spot, almost impossible to hit and spawn spraying without a break is not playing...

BTW.. Just to get back to comparing to glitches..
You can easily play around glitching people too..
Easy peasy lemon squeezy
 

Lyzone

Meme Elite - BETA Squad Commander
Game Admin
Warteam Member
#22
There is spawn killing that's unavoidable.

As an example, I often manage to push into enemy side of the map and then I have no choice but to spawn kill. People literally spawn on top of me, if I ignore them I die. In that case sure, I'm rewarded for being able to get that deep in the enemy side of the map without being stopped and that goes along the lines of what Anubis said. There are grey areas when it comes to spawn killing

BUT... in the case with guy sitting behind a counter spraying 1 spot with LMG, that's TOTALLY different and THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO POINT OUT. Doing that stuff is just exploiting the game to the fullest.

I believe admins should have every right to kick players who abuse the spawns to that extent, it just ruins the game for everyone. There is NO WAY to prevent spawn killing in this game, especially in a server with 30-40 people, that's understandable to everyone, as an example, in sabotage its impossible to plant the bomb if you don't do some spawn killing.

It's important to differentiate between different kinds of spawn killing and punish the kind that's just outright ridiculous.

This should never be acceptable in any case.
 

GammaDeltaII

RiddleBox
Retired Admin
#23
I think it's not that straightforward. Part of the problem lies in the game itself.
  • Some maps are inherently unbalanced in terms of layout, favouring one side. There's not much you can do about that. Those are simply design flaws.
  • Some maps have a problem with spawn points. This issue can be addressed by redefining them and making sure there are sufficient spawn points and they are at least "safe", i.e. such that players have some cover when they spawn and do not spawn out in the open, leaving them vulnerable. However, there's always going to be a trade-off. Spawn points closer to the edges of the maps, further away from the action, will reduce the likelihood of individual players getting spawn killed, but increase the likelihood of a team getting spawn trapped. Spawn points closer to the centre will make it less likely for a team to get spawn trapped, but more likely for individual players to get spawn killed.
  • Another issue is the spawn logic, which is erratic at times, causing players to spawn close to enemies.
  • Unbalance in team strength is undeniably a factor, but that's simply part of the game dynamics. One of the main goals is obviously to suppress or dominate the enemy team to win. The stronger one team is compared to the other, the more likely the other team will end up being pushed back to their spawn zone. However, suppression does not mean spawn killing / camping / trapping.
  • Both sides should have equal opportunity to at least defend themselves and give them a chance to break the enemy suppression, depending on their team strength. If one team is cornered at their spawn zone and players get killed as soon as they spawn, before they can even move, they obviously don't have any fair chance to fight back and get out. That's simply exploiting the fact that players will have to spawn somewhere, at known locations, to artificially maintain a dominant position. A possible solution is to give players spawn protection for a couple of seconds, during which they can neither be killed nor kill anyone else, but that is also a little artificial. Ideally, the spawn points should be inherently "safe".
  • There are different forms of spawn killing and it's not always black and white.
    • Incidental spawn killing due to enemies spawning close to each other (bad spawn logic). You cannot really force players to hold back, control their reflexes and think about which enemies they are allowed to kill and which not. That's highly impractical.
    • Continuous spawn camping and purposely spawn killing. This is obviously the main point of the discussion. As yet there is no rule explicitly banning this, but such a rule could easily be added and enforced. However, I think it's best to get to the root of the problem and try to solve it by creating "safer" spawn points. For example, the problem mentioned previously of players camping behind the counter on Crossfire and spawn killing across the map could easily be solved by moving the spawn point — which is obviously in a terrible location, completely exposed.
    • Running around the map from one spawn location to another, anticipating where enemies will spawn and killing them as they spawn. This is the grey area in between. If a player is not camping at one location, does that make it any different? It shouldn't, because camping itself is allowed. Something to think about.
    • What about spawn killing with explosives, kill streaks or even knife? :D
 

Hybrid

#4iS, 4.5 inches on good days.
Game Admin
Warteam Member
#24
Continuous spawn camping and purposely spawn killing. This is obviously the main point of the discussion. As yet there is no rule explicitly banning this, but such a rule could easily be added and enforced. However, I think it's best to get to the root of the problem and try to solve it by creating "safer" spawn points. For example, the problem mentioned previously of players camping behind the counter on Crossfire and spawn killing across the map could easily be solved by moving the spawn point — which is obviously in a terrible location, completely exposed.
This was discussed for over a year now. Same answer as back then. Please discuss this matter on next admin meeting because lets be honest here: It will probably take another year or two untill you swap the spawn points without it causing problems. A simple rule can fix it right away.

As for the other points: i dont think anyone really complains about map dominance, dont make a bigger deal out of it than it is.
 

Lyzone

Meme Elite - BETA Squad Commander
Game Admin
Warteam Member
#26
Considering this discussion is always about HC server you either deal with it or drop max player count.
Meh I don't think reducing the player count even to 24 or 28 like 1 and 2 will change much.

HC just outright breaks the game, pretty much every gun 1 shots and walls seem to be made of paper.
That is the main reason why spawn killing is so much more common in HC than in Vanilla. In vanilla people sitting behind a counter with lmg cant 1shot people spawning across the map. They might tag them once but it takes like 2-3 shots to finish em off so you have time to react and you can just get out of the way.

Just deal with spawn kill abusers like we deal with glitchers. It's not that hard imo. Warn --> Kick --> Temp (if keeps on doing it)
 
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